Yesterday was the 2nd anniversary of Dave’s starting at Fellowship. In lieu of this, we thought we’d both share some thoughts on this past year of ministry. As a bit of a disclaimer, we’re both going to be pretty honest and open in our answers to the five following questions so please be kind and gentle with us!
There are a number of things that get people riled up about at church. Money is definitely one of them. People get uncomfortable when they hear the preacher teach on the topic of tithing. I’ve heard on numerous occasions the response to this teaching is “the church just wants our money”. This topic was actually addressed at our church this past Sunday and to be honest I think the Sr. Pastor did a really good job of addressing this issue. I’ve done alot of thinking on this topic since YC. At YC they took an offering for funds to go towards running YCs in Malawi and Belize. There were approximately 17, 000 youth that attended YC and they raised $57,000 for this cause, which works out to about $3.40/person. Though the people on stage seemed impressed by this-I was not. Look at it this way, most of the kids there spent over $100 buying CDs, T-shirts and the like. Even lunch costs more than $3.40! Couple this with the $125 registration fee, you are heading towards $150-$300 for this conference all up and yet they only give a meagre few bucks? Are our youth taught about tithing from both parents and youth leaders alike? To be honest, I myself have not really talked to my youth about this. Part of the reason why I haven’t done this is that I just assumed that teens know about tithing (my parents taught me about tithing), or perhaps I assumed that they have no money to give. But the more I look at it, my assumptions were wrong. The spiritual discipline of tithing is rarely brought up (though some churches/parents do) and obviously in seeing how much was spent over the weekend, the youth have a lot of expendable income!
As parents, do you talk about tithing with your children and teens? How do you set the example?
As pastors/youth pastors, do you talk about tithing with the children and teens? How do you encourage them to give?
Also see my first lot of thoughts on YC in Free Hugs and Modesty
If you read my post from last weekend, you would know that I have been plagued by a question that a visiting pastor had recently asked me. If you have no idea, you can check out that post here. I have found like most things that bother me… when I try to work them out… it always ends up with a lot more questions and thoughts. Maybe I’m over analysing something that is pretty simple – who knows? Well anyway, I have thought about it more plus we had the chance to discuss it at our staff meeting this week. Here is what I’m thinking/questioning:
- I updated the church family photo board this week and added a number of new people to it. Actually quite a few new people have started attending the church since I commenced my ministry there nearly 2 years ago. Shouldn’t that have increased our weekly attendance? Yes, I know that we have lost a few people but still I would say that we have gained more than we have lost. Why isn’t this reflected in our attendance? Is there something more here? Is it because those who attend our church don’t attend it regularly? If so, what does that tell us about those people? Is church not a priority? Do people not value community as much as they used to?
- One of our church’s fastest growing and more fruitful ministries is the Wednesday night ESL class. We have seen a lot of people come to the Lord, be baptised and start attending the church through this ministry. Why is this? Why is this ministry producing fruit while others aren’t? Are immigrants coming to the west, more open to the Gospel than Canadians? Do we then just focus on this ministry as our main outreach ministry to the community? (my answer is definitely no.)
- Then we get to the dangerous part of this whole discussion – comparing our church to others in the area. Why are other churches in our area growing? What is so different? Do we need to change the bathwater and do church differently? What do we change? To what extent do we go down that road? A problematic and quite dangerous road if we follow the example of a number of churches that through change have made the gospel secondary.
- Faithful Gospel Centred Relational Ministry!
As you can tell by my many questions…. I was a curious child.
I must admit that I bought this book as a bit of a joke for someone I know. Actually it was the subtitle that caught my attention – ‘How to make a decision without dreams, visions, fleeces, impressions, open doors, random bible verses, casting lots, liver shivers, writing in the sky, etc.‘ Hilarious I know, but let’s be real here – most of us have gone there at some stage in our lives. Anyway, when I bought this book I didn’t know what to expect… however when I actually read it, I was pleasantly surprised.
Kevin De Young, who is the Senior Pastor of University Reformed Church in East Lansing, Michigan, says ‘God’s people tinker around with churches, jobs and relationships, worrying that they haven’t found God’s perfect will for their lives.’ This book isn’t hyper-spiritual like others on this topic but rather it explains a clear, biblical way to approach and discern God’s will – namely by following God’s Word and using the wisdom that God has given us. At the heart of this book is the thesis that God’s will for us is simply ‘that we live holy set apart lives’ (based on 1 Thess 4:3). This is first and foremost. Furthermore De Young says:
“So go marry someone, provided you’re equally yoked and you actually like being with each other. Go get a job, provided it’s not wicked. Go live somewhere in something with somebody or nobody. But put aside the passivity and the quest for complete fulfillment and the perfectionism and the preoccupation with the future, and for God’s sake start making some decisions in your life. Don’t wait for the liver-shiver. If you are seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, you will be in God’s will, so just go out and do something.”
De Young, Just Do Something, Pg 61
Personally, the only thing lacking in this book, was the need for more of a discussion on the role of prayer in discerning God’s will. That aside, De Young is biblically faithful in his approach in dealing with this topic and at 128 pages; this little book is a gem for all people, of all demographics.
I must admit for the most part I really enjoyed YC this year especially the music and the time that I got to spend with our church’s teens. However, one thing that really bothered me both this year and last was the lack of modesty amongst teen girls and the blatant ‘cop a feel’ attitude of teen boys. Obviously, not all teen fell into these categories, but there were lots of low cut tops and short shorts/skirts to be seen. Amongst the boys, many a “free hug” signs were seen-signs displayed in hopes of physical contact with any willing female. Really I think that these guys with “free hug” signs is a symptom of the lack of modesty displayed by the girls. And no-I’m not condoning the actions of the boys, I really wish I could give each one a smack on the back of the head, but if I did that-I’d be posting this blog from behind bars! I really appreciate C.J. Mahaney’s thoughts on the issue of modesty through what Paul writes in 1 Timothy 2:9:
“Any biblical discussion of modesty begins by addressing the heart, not the hemline. We must start with the attitude of the modest woman. This emphasis on the heart is front and center in 1 Timothy 2:9. Note the phrase ‘with modesty and self-control.’ All respectable apparel is the result of a godly heart, where modesty and self-control originate. Your wardrobe is a public statement of your personal and private motivation. And if you profess godliness, you should be concerned with cultivating these twin virtues, modesty and self-control.
Modesty means propriety. It means avoiding clothes and adornment that are extravagant or sexually enticing. Modesty is humility expressed in dress. It’s a desire to serve others, particularly men, by not promoting or provoking sensuality. Immodesty, then, is much more than wearing a short skirt or low-cute top; it’s the act of drawing undue attention to yourself. It’s pride, on display by what you wear. Self-control is, in a word, restraint. Restraint for the purpose of purity; restraint for the purpose of exalting God and not ourselves. Together, these attitudes of modesty and self-control should be the hallmark of the godly woman’s dress.”
Mahaney, Worldliness, Pages 119-120
I think it’s important as youth leaders and parents, regardless of the amount of rebellion we get back, to cultivate these virtues of modesty and self-control amongst the young ladies that we minister to/parent. It is also important for us to show young men how to treat the opposite sex with respect and with the attitude that they are sisters in Christ, not just ‘pieces of meat’ that serve only to satisfy their desires. We need to be fervent in praying for protection from temptation for our young men and women as this can be a huge stumbling block for them.
I will continue with some more thought’s on my time at YC – stayed tuned… it will be positive!
Something has bothered me all weekend and no its not YC related.
I was giving one of the pastors whose group is staying at the church this weekend the grand tour of the facilities. We eventually ended up in the sanctuary and like aways I get the questions about how many people can the sanctuary hold and what our attendance is on a Sunday. No problem there… Get this all the time.
However what happened next took me by surprise. The pastor asked me why there was a big gap between the capacity and attendance- why the sanctuary wasn’t packed on a Sunday. I couldn’t answer him… And its bothered me ever since. We have great teaching, good worship and some great programs… But I was lost for words. How would you answer that question?
Dave Winter
Jen Winter
The Winters
